I don’t know if you are simply agreeing with us or truly trying to say something else? Either way, I think we are all saying that exact thing.

“Had only rob said THAT…” (Emphasis mine)

perhaps you are looking for something far more comprehensive than can be found in one sermon. He is focused on a point, and I really don’t think (and I could be wrong…it has happened:) that what you have centered out was the exact message that he wanted people to take home with them. We (ministers/pastors/proclaimers/speakers) can’t give a complete comprehensive theology in each sermon. He already goes for 45 min.:) that in itself is amazing…but how many tomes of theology have been written? I am wondering, what were you LOOKING for when you listened to his sermon? I think the interesting thing about sermons (and scripture) is sometimes when we GO IN looking for something…we end up finding what we’re looking for, which may never have been the writer/speaker’s intent? Just a thought!

Had only Rob said that…

“To me it’s a pretty big deal that Peter uses the phrase “participate in the divine nature”. To me that’s saying that our life is somehow entangled with Christ’s, and that God has invested a lot into us. That’s why I don’t see it as much of a stretch to say “God has faith in us”.”

well stated Phil.

The “faith” that Jesus has in us is only because of Him working through us, and us continually looking at Him. As with many things Bell says, there is always an underlying influence. I think this is Bell’s way of explaining salvation in a very Karl Barth sort of way, in which salvation is looked at as taking part of the Trinitarian love.

2 Peter 1:3-4 says,

“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”

To me it’s a pretty big deal that Peter uses the phrase “participate in the divine nature”. To me that’s saying that our life is somehow entangled with Christ’s, and that God has invested a lot into us. That’s why I don’t see it as much of a stretch to say “God has faith in us”.

I believe that much in life is like a pendulum. All these individuals trying to personally over-compensate for the “evils” they see on the other extreme. Which is why a conservative evangelical can come across as hard-nosed, uncaring and arrogant, while a pentecostal seems to put too much emphasis on emotions… I think a similar pendulum is in faith, and value… I believe that so long as we are elevating our status of ourselves in God’s eyes, we are diminishing His in our own.

I think of John in Revelation – who felt so woefully unfit in heaven that he’s bowing down to every angel that talks to him. Or Isaiah, crying out woe is me! Or Moses, who would have died if he had looked upon God, save His backside… Yes, God loves us. We are of more value than the sparrows. But, we ought to think of ourselves with more humility than we do.

Paul started out his ministry the least of the apostles. And began to see himself as the least of all saints. Towards the end of his ministry, he believed himself to be the chief of all sinners. The closer we are in communion to our Lord, the smaller we are in our own minds.

I think what it comes down to is this though. I like the Holy Spirit being brought into this. That is the essence that sums up what we are vessels of. I listened to the sermon again tonight and I think psychologically what Bell is getting at is to tell his audience that they are VALUED by God. God values us. I know from much reading and listening that Bell’s church is full of people that need to hear that They are valued by God. I think there are people in ALL of our churches that need to hear that every once in a while. Heck… I need to hear that!

Since we are playing around with semantics, let me throw out another word. Many of us have used the Synonym “trust” here. What if a better synonym for Bell’s use of the word faith here is “ENTRUST”? Def.: “To give over (something) to another for care, protection, or performance” –American Heritage Dictionary

We have been given the HS with a weighty RESPONSIBILITY. We need to be reminded of that. There is several ways. 1) guilt 2) Inspire… I think,from a psychological perspective, that #2 is far more motivating than #1. I have never heard Bell use a “guilt tactic”. Instead he stirs the spirit’s fir within. (actually, there is one sermon where he talks about someone feeling guilty after his sermon, and him putting his purpose straight).

I am inspired when I am reminded that I am valued by God so much that he not only created me unique and with a plan, but then has made me a vessel of the most important thing he could give us (besides his original creating breath): the HS… As You say Nicole, in me personally it inspires “obedience/love/servitude to God”. But I’ll take it one step further… It empowers and emboldens me to go out and allow the HS to work in and through me… I’m not just a storage vessel, I am a….something that delivers seeds… yup…can’t think of what it’s called…def. not a farmer:) All the time though, I know that what is emboldening me is not Bell’s (or any person’s) words, nor my own will… but the very thing dwelling within me… the HS! That which I am delivering to the world is that which empowers me; that which dwells within me….. that’s something to try and wrap our heads around. We have been entrusted with this beautiful gift… we are to nurture (take care of it within ourselves)it (why we do bible study, devotions, worship, etc.), and use it as it was designed to be used (performance)… spread amongst the world. (def. of entrust).

hope that made sense.

As a side note though…. I was sitting at dinner tonight pondering something as a minister who enjoys presenting and listening to sermons. How would I feel if I delivered a sermon and out of the (we’ll say) 2000+ words I said, people got hung up on ONE of those words…. Hmmm.. I’d say that they missed THE point (as opposed to A point) of my whole sermon. That’s like a teacher giving a student a C on what should have been an A paper because she/he didn’t agree with a word choice on the second page of a 10 pager! i know, not a perfect analogy… but a pastor when preaching (even from a manuscript) does not dissect EVERY word because he is more concerned with the overall message. It is the nature of proclamation…esp. when you have to give a sermon on a regular short-term interval such as most pastors.

Just some thoughts. ???!!!
cheers!

I think this is the part that always stands out most to me in Bell’s discussion on Peter – that we talk about God having a trust in us, when really, God is only using us by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus talked about how much better off we are for Him leaving – because He would send the Spirit to us, to dwell in us. It is not a faith in God’s vessels that we are seeing, but God using God to inspire obedience/love/servitute to God. And, it is not for anything great in us that He died when we were enemies of His….

This is one of the most interesting semantical arguments that I have read, and wow, are the out-of-context scriptures flying!

But let’s go back a second and think this through. you said Dave, that you actually admired his speaking skills. I agree, much to be learned for me there too!both of us being educated know that some things don’t translate well from say greek or latin into English. Yet part of your reformed tradition is that we don’t preach (communicate a message) in that greek and latin because the people don’t understand it. Yes we may refer to the greek, but then have to translate it for the masses.

Let’s take this a step further. I have a good friend who was a Religion and philosophy major with me. Smartest dude I’ve known. But to read his blog, I have to sit there with a dictionary in my lap. is he speaking English? yes! But he has a tendency to speak over 80% of his friends heads.

One of the beautiful things that makes Bell’s preaching resound in the hearts of his listeners is his ability to speak simply about complex things. God, our relationship to God, revelation, and our purpose/ commission in this world are complex theological things. So he uses this word “faith” in the same way a common person would…yes I think it was a slight play on words.

Yes, I agree we are the vessels that you quote from scripture. But when I place something in a “vessel”, I choose the “vessel” that I “trust” will best fit the needs of what I am securing in it. If I am placing say, my passport in a “vessel”, I can put it in a file in my cabinet, or I can place it in my fireproof safe. My intention for the “vessel” is to keep safe no matter what, the contents within. I think I’m going with the safe…I TRUST (have faith) that it will do a better job of protecting that document.

Ok, change gears, God chose us to be the “vessels” of his word, good news, fill in blank here (another discussion entirely). He didn’t have to choose us (as others have mentioned) but he did. But does he need us? Prob. not. As you’ve pointed out in cut and paste scripture, god can be found everywhere, even nature cries out the revelation of God. There is room for general revelation and the idea that we are the vessels of a specific revelation. Back to purpose of the vessel. What was the purpose of the vessel He chose? Not just to hold, but to transport and transmit. God chose us to be that vessel, and trusts that we will become the vessel he called us to be. He didn’t choose a giraffe or a monkey because they weren’t the best vessels. Rocks, although they may cry out… well, every one I’ve met has not spoken to me even when I talk to it. Even my pet rock:(

What I’m saying is that I think your anti-bell bias has become very nit-picky. you chastise Erica for calling you out on not exploring the whole of his sermon, and you castle your king, or pull rank and say that calling you out on that not sticking to topic. But it is. One can’t just close off and rant on one word of a sermon…it has to be taken in the whole context of his message.

I don’t believe that Bell was trying to use a biblical def. of “faith”, i think he was speaking to the vernacular idea that God sees value in us (his creation), enough to be redeemed and entrusted with the most important task God has ever placed on any of his creation. God has a plan that what he placed in his vessels (us)will be delivered through us, but will be by the power of God. Rob is telling us that we are valued to God (I’m pretty sure that’s biblical), and that we have a great commission (think that’s biblical too). He is in no way devaluing God, simply acknowledging the great importance of what God has placed in our hands. Everything we do, every breath we take, is of the power of God, and is supposed to be to the Glory of God. I don’t think (speculation here) that Bell would argue with that…ok, no he’s said that so he would embrace it… forget the speculation.

God doesn’t NEED us… but he CHOOSES to use us! He has trusted us as the appropriate vessel to spread the seed upon the earth. The trust is in us, yes…but since we are his creation, and he created us to be that vessel, really his trust is in himself…hmmm… That’s interesting logic… not man-centered at all! Just a complete logic circle that we happen to be a part of.

(please read this slightly tounge in cheek. I am not trying to be rude. I hope you know that by now, but it never hurts to have a disclaimer).

Errata: No one has mentioned this, but I want to say I really like Pat’s statement. she needed props!

Just my 2-cents.

We are talking about our doctrine of God here. If I am being unloving, then so was the apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 and Galatians 1 where he said that if anyone preaches another gospel, he should be accursed…

Could you provide a specific example where my speech or language was unloving?

Okay, kids, let’s try it this way:

When Peter preached at Pentecost, Who was really doing the work?

When Stephen answered the Jews, Who filled him with the words?

It is all God! For pity’s sake, if He had “faith” in us, He wouldn’t interfere! But He Himself gives us our strength and our Gospel, our words and our works.

To say that He has faith in us is to say that we do the work–and deserve the glory. But He doesn’t leave us alone for two seconds, does He?

To quote C.S. Lewis, “Logic! What are they teaching in the schools these days?”

So you and Henry aren’t reformed in your soteriology, ok. Great. That hardly means that you aren’t far apart.