Rob Bell and Hell, ooze interview
July 22, 2007The Dialogue…
You recently preached a sermon called “God wants to save Christians from hell.” I was discussing the message with a guy who after hearing this message was a bit disturbed and somehow came to the conclusion that you didn’t believe in a literal hell. Let me ask you, do you believe in a literal hell that is defined simply as eternal separation from God?
Rob: Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this.” My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?
I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side? Like if you are going to pick causes, if you’re literally going to say these are the lines in the sand, I’ve got to know that people are going to burn forever, this is one of the things that you drive your stake in the ground on. I don’t understand that.
Especially when so many fail to recognize the hell that many people are experiencing today and do little about it.
Rob: Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God. If you are really serious about evangelism, as I’m sure your friend would claim, and you wanted to save people from hell, then wouldn’t your hope be that everybody reconciles with God? Why would you hope for anything else? It would be your duty to long for that. I would actually ask questions about his salvation.
Read the whole thing here.
Now for the problems…
1. Rob, “My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace? Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?”
God’s love and grace won on the cross in that he made provision for the salvation for the world. God offers salvation to all who will believe, but he does not force salvation on anyone!
2. “I don’t know why as a Christian you would have to make such declarative statements. Like your friend, does he want there to be a literal hell? I am a bit skeptical of somebody who argues that passionately for a literal hell, why would you be on that side?”
I argue passionately for a literal hell because I argue passionately for literal interpretation of the Scripture. If we don’t believe in a literal hell, how then can we believe in a literal heaven?
3. “Yeah, I would think it would be your duty as a Christian to hope and long and pray for somehow everybody to be reconciled to God.”
Actually our time would be better spent preaching the gospel so that individuals can escape the fires of hell and enjoy abundant life in Jesus Christ, which starts now, but culminates in heaven. What a waste of time to hope for something that God has already said will not occur.
Phil, sorry your comment got deleted. I had problems with this post..
Wow. I didn’t know Rob Bell didn’t believe in a literal hell. That is disturbing.
The whole emergent scene is so concerned with the HERE and NOW, that they make it the ultimate thing, and almost completely ignore the fact that this life is a “vapor”, and after death, there is either everlasting joy in the presence of Christ in Heaven, or there is Hell, eternal punishment for sin.
I don’t understand it.
beuler,
You make an excellent point. There is a here and now aspect of salvation (already). However, there is also a much larger not-yet aspect of salvation as well! They down-play that as much as possible!
Thanks for your site. I just stumbled across it this morning, and I love the fact that you are a young guy with a passion for God and good theology. That’s something that is clearly missing these days.
And I’ve been more and more leary of Bell lately, but I wasn’t sure why. Thanks for the post.
Matt mc, It’s encouraging to know that the site has been beneficial to you. Praise the Lord — that’s its purpose!
[...] (HT: seeing clearly/Dave Marriott) [...]
There are many distasteful truths that are true nonetheless. Do I argue that there is such a thing as cancer because I want there to be cancer? Denying the existance of a literal hell not only exposes a disdain for Biblical truth, it diminishes the cross!
I can’t believe Rob Bell actually questions the faith of someone who believes in a literal hell. Seems like he’s drawing a line in the sand about something… I thought the Emergent/ing Church was all about ambiguity.
I’d like to add that Hell will not be “eternal separation from God.” See Luke 12:5; Matthew 25:41; Revelation 14:10. (Heaven & Hell, Edward Donnely)
Thanks for actually putting the scripture up there Ryan!! That’s what we need in the blogrolls these days. Bring it on Rob Bell!!
hell is eternal separation from God, “Depart from Me… (Matt 25:41″. If we are departed from God, we are separated from Him. But I will agree that separation isn’t the whole answer. There will also be everlasting torment as poor souls burn in an unquenchable fire and are reminded of their sin for all eternity. Either we will afflict our souls as Leviticus says on the day of atonement, so that we may repent and be saved, or God will afflict us for an eternity.
Seriously, Everyone is missing the point. I am actually laughing of how many comments were made on Bell’s comments totally taking what he said out of context.
Does Bell believe in a literal hell - yes!!
His point was this:
Why focus on this to Non-Believers?
Have you ever told a Non-Believer about hell, and therefor converted him. I would bet NEVER. As a matter of fact, you most likely will drive him away from Christianity forever. Bell’s comment is take care of the here and now, not discrediting what will happen to us when we die. If you give a Non-believer “bread”, or shelter, or money, or do something for them that they really needed vs. Saying “Do you know there is a hell, and if you don’t repent, youy are going there”, they become a friend(and maybe a future believer). Talking about a literal hell turns them off. Trust me on this. I see it every day.
That’s it. That is all Rob Bell is saying. Nothing more. Don’t make more out of it.
Further comments by the “Ooze” interviewer that aren’t published here. See that site’s comments to see them…
I wish I would have had more time to explore this issue further with Rob, however I had already exceeded my interview time with him. I want to say that the emotion of what he was saying, which may not come through in a manuscript was that many Christians get so hung up with the doctrinal issues and miss the heart of evangelism which is to love those people who don’t know Jesus and do everything possible to keep them from being separated from Him. If we had as much zeal for people as we do doctrine sometimes, it would overshadow the need to hammer those issues so hard. Maybe it was more like “yeah I believe in hell but let’s focus on loving people and showing them Jesus, rather than telling them where they are going to go.” Also, during the session earlier that day at the conference (Isn’t she beautiful), Rob did specifically say “of course I believe in a literal hell”.
vic
Right on the Nose Teddy!!!!!!!!!
This is alot of what Rob Bell gets hammered on, people caught up in doctrine, taking what he says out of context. Well said.
Jimbo, I’m caught up in doctrine. I admit.
But so was Paul, Timothy, Titus, Peter, James, etc.
Jimbo,
You wrote, “Have you ever told a Non-Believer about hell, and therefor converted him. I would bet NEVER. As a matter of fact, you most likely will drive him away from Christianity forever.”
I have never converted anyone. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. However, I have had opportunity to lead individuals to Christ. When I share the gospel, I usually (if not always) talk about hell.
Jesus told us that he is convicting the world of sin, of righteousness and judgment. There is judgment coming; I will teach and preach the whole counsel of God.
“of course I believe in a literal hell”
vs.
“Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this.” My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win”
Which one does Rob believe? How can you reconcile those?
Clearly,
Let me first admit that my schooling is not theological based. I have a minor in Religion from Mount Union College(LOL). I also have to admit, that alot of my comments could be due to my lack of understanding, BUT, I truly believe that most Christians do not do a good job at “The Great Commission”. Tony Evans from Dallas’s Oakcliff Bible Institute likes to refer to them as “God’s retarded children”. We have alot of them. I think they want to spread the Word Sooooooo much that they lead with,”Are you Saved”, or “Do you know hell is real?” You would have to agree with me that this is very detrimental to the cause.
As far as your comment:
“I have never converted anyone. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. However, I have had opportunity to lead individuals to Christ. When I share the gospel, I usually (if not always) talk about hell”.
I agree with you, it is 100% the job of the Holy Spirit.
As far as talking about a literal hell, I like to focus on other parts of the Gospel. Not that your focus is bad, just not my style(nor the style of Rob Bell). I will go there if that is the direction the conversation goes, I have just found that it is not a positive “seed planter”.
It is part of the Gospel as you mention, but not the ONLY part. When you are speaking with Non-Believers, you cant possibly cover the entire Gospel and its dept, you choose what you feel is “the juice”, or what the Spirit leads you to say. Again, if mentioning hell is beneficial in your “seed planting”, then fire away.
As far as your statement:
“of course I believe in a literal hell”
vs.
“Well, there are people now who are seriously separated from God. So I would assume that God will leave room for people to say “no I don’t want any part of this.” My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win”
Which one does Rob believe? How can you reconcile those?
I truly believe that we need to find other sources to really get the jist of what Rob Bell thinks hell is all about. I can tell you from reading both of his books, seeing him speak live a couple of times, and watching all of his NOOMAs, that he does believe in a literal hell, just doesnt lead with that, and chooses to focuses on other parts of the Awesome Gospel of Jesus.
By the Way - I would like to take this time for thanking you for holding this forum. It is very constructive, and I appreciate you making it available.
Have a Great Evening.
Jimbo,
Your interaction here is welcomed — thanks for joining in.
Just think about this for a moment: is a gospel without judgment really a gospel at all?
I don’t think we have to choose what to focus on in the gospel. It’s not that long of a story. The good news is that the cross has eliminated both the power and penalty of sin for all those who will believe. The result: abundant life in Christ now and for all ages to come.
Amen clearly. You can’t have good news without the bad news. If we don’t present hell as a real place to non-believers, then why do they need a savior? Jesus came to save us from our sins and the sting of hell.
Plus, if we use social methods to bring people to Jesus, how is that different from the pegans using social methods to join their club?
The gospel does not need to be narrowed down to being solely focused on hell to be relevant, but it certainly can’t ignore it. I definitely would agree with Dave’s post, but I have never gone up to a person and confronted them straight up off the street with their coming judgment. However, it definitely enters the conversation. I choose not to lead with, “Hi! my name is Jeremy, and I just wanted to tell you that you are headed for eternal damnation in hell!” Ultimately judgment is a significant motivator for salvation. Why bother if there is no coming judgment?
Here is the bottom line. If you believe in a literal hell but you do not desire to focus on that, then say it clearly. His interview would not be read by many unsaved people, so he did not have to worry about that.
To minimize, or even outright deny its existance, at the very least changes the urgency regardless of anyone’s claim to the contrary. And at its core is a denying of the truth of Scripture itself.
Take a stroll by Golgotha and witness the crucifixion and then tell me what was being paid for there. If Bell doesn’t believe in hell then he has two options. He either believes in soul destruction or universalism.
God doesn’t ask us to believe what makes the unbelievers comfortable, it commands us to speak the truth in love. Bell’s coy theology is just the beginning of what is to come.
I have to be honest here. I love the interaction from you other guys, but it really makes me want to vomit. I say that in LOVE, but it does.
I would bet that 90% of you know nothing more about Rob Bell than that interview that we are speaking about, and you may have read a book by him. I bet that is the extent.
BECAUSE, if you knew him, you would know that he does believe in a literal hell, therefore we shouldn’t even be discussing whether or not he does - HE DOES.
I STRONGLY recommend something for all of you guys. I recommend that you go to your local christian bookstore, or go to http://www.nooma.com. Purchase the NOOMA called Bullhorn. This is Bell chatting about the negativeness that can come out of focusing on hell as your central theme.
Horneck was close when he said he wouldnt go up to a person on the street and say, “Guess what, you are going to hell”. That is all Bell is saying. Thats it.
I KNOW.
If you really want to know about Bell, watch all of his NOOMAs, better yet, go to http://www.marshill.com. You can get the last 20 sermons for free, or you can get any of his lecture series for $1 per sermon. You will agree that this man is FULL OF THE SPIRIT. The things that Mars Hill(the church he pastors) has done, and are doing, is out of this world. They really are the hands and feet of Jesus.
Bell stresses action. He stresses love. Its easy for us in here(me included to talk about what we are talking about), its hard to get out of our comfort zone and actually feed the hungry, give medicine to the sick, give a home to the homeless, the list goes on and on. BELL DOES ALL OF THIS.
Let me say it again to all of you who want to say Bell doesnt believe in hell. HE DOES. To those who say he has a “coy theology”, to those of you who say, “we cant use social methods to bring people to Jesus”(btw - I do it all the time, you know why, because I love them, don’t judge them), those who say”the gospel doesn’t have to be narrowed, its not that long”. I challenge you - BE CREATIVE!!
Make the word of God sound awesome(because it is), make it appetizing(because it is), make it alive(because it is), make it entertaining(because it is). I plead with you, don’t turn people OFF to the message all together. Don’t be a Bullhorn guy(as Rob Bell would say).
Help me to bring Christianity back to Being Cool. Help me to make it the “in” thing - DONT BE A BULLHORN GUY.
Hi there,
Why do people seem to think that there would have been no point to Jesus’ death if there is no hell?
Why do people think that if there is no hell then people don’t need a saviour?
There are people in terrible situations and horrible circunstances. people who have made bad choices, taken wrong turns and cannot see how to get out of them. Poeple who think that killing themselves is the only alternative left to them. Regardless of whether there is a hell or not, don’t these people need a saviour today? Don’t they need to know that God loves them now? That God cares about them here and now?
Some people quickly point to scriptures like Matt 25:41 to justify their belief of hell but fail to look at the verses preceeding which detail exactly why Jesus said these words. According to these scriptures, if you want to go to heaven, it doesn’t matter what doctrine you believe but what you actually do… remember, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Cheers
Jimbo
“I would bet that 90% of you know nothing more about Rob Bell than that interview that we are speaking about, and you may have read a book by him. I bet that is the extent.”
How about this: I would bet that you know nothing more about anyone in here than what they have written on this post, and you may have read their blog for a few months straight. I bet that is the extent.
Would you have a problem with that? You are insinuating that listening to an interview and reading a book tells you nothing of true worth about an individual and what he really believes. Sometimes, when I read emergent/emerging authors, I feel the same way — but only because they say nothing of substance on which to grab ahold. However, in typical, life scenarios, if you have read an author, then you know something of what he believes.
For instance, if you read what Paul writes in the book of Galatians, you know that he believes salvation to be by faith alone in Christ alone and is willing to pronounce damnation upon those who preach otherwise.
So, from reading one book (letter) by one person, I know much about him.
I am not claiming to be the Rob Bell expert here. But your post seemed to go like this.
“I know Rob Bell — that establishes my authority on this topic. You don’t know Rob Bell — you have no authority to speak on this issue.”
The fact is: Rob has said some very contradictory things about hell. He has to. He holds to this unique universal view on the atonement and it leaves him absolutely floundering on the doctrine of hell.
Clearly,
Thanks for the response. You definitely make some good points.
I do not claim to be the Rob Bell expert AT ALL, actually far from it. BUT, I can tell you that he DOES believe in hell from listening to large number of his sermon series. My ritual is usually to download an Ed Young Sermon, or a Rob Bell sermon onto my Ipod, and to then go for a run. So, I usually get to listen to Rob Bell about two-three times/week. NOT enough to be an expert, but enough to know someone’s beliefs on a certain topic.
Its kind of like someone meeting my wife, and they ask her if she believes in donating 10% of her income. Her response is, “not necessarily”. What exactly does that mean. Those hearing her say that, could come to multiple conclusions. BUT, me, being her husband, knows that giving 10% of her income isnt the focus for her(or us) for that matter. I know that her focus is in helping others, and in giving with a joyful heart, in her knowing that it is all Gods anyways. There are alot of people that give 10% because they feel that in doing so, everything else will be OK. Her and I would argue that if you give 10%, but still don’t acknowledge that its all his, he doesnt want your money. As you can see, the simple question of, “Do you believe in giving 10%”, can be simple, but at the same time very complex.
I have the advantage of knowing her heart, and knowing what she meant by answering the questions, “not necessarily”. Others knowing her from maybe one or two conversations, wouldnt have that knowledge. What I am saying is that I THINK I know what Rob Bell believes based upon his actions, and based upon his heart. He wears his heart on his sleeve. His church is up for examination. Check it out, they are the living, breathing body of Jesus.
He has helped thousands of people who used to think church was judgemental, boring, or for the select few - to think of church as something cool, as something that is the “in”thing to do, as something that can transform lives because of what Jesus did. I can’t think of too many that can do this. I put Ed Young in the same category. He is drawing to those who have been turned off to Christianity to come back. He is making the Word relevant to 2007 people. THATS the CHALLENGE.
As for whether or not, Rob Bell believes in a literal hell, I would say he definitely does based upon what I know about him. I understand those who like to focus on doctrine and this person said this, and this person said that, because we have to watch out for “false or misleading” prophets so to speak. I like to focus on the “fruit”. To be honest, with Rob Bell, I see ALOT of it!!
The bottom line is this.
If a person does not believe in a literal hell, that is a major problem with wide ranging consequences including interpretation of Scripture.
If a persona believes in a literal hell but shys away from focusing of that, well then that is a problem we can debate.
I have always thought that Bell was the latter, however, just when I’m ready to let my guard down he says something that seems to contradict what I thought. All he would have to do is say it once and move on. He is so intelligent that it gets in the way of clearity sometimes.
This is my first post
just saying HI
Hell in fact does not have to be a part of the salvation message. As a baptist minister in fact I find that often times it becomes the reasoning for a person’s desire for salvation rather than the true reason. If hell is the deciding factor on whether someone chooses to follow Him or not, are they really interested in following Him or covering their own behind. The fact the we are CURRENTLY separated from God and the only way to abolish that separation is Jesus, should be the focal point and the desire someone wants to follow Him.
Getting down to the real nitty gritty, it doesn’t even matter what we say when sharing Christ. The Holy Spirit is who sets up the engagement, does the convicting, and then the converting. We do nothing but be obedient to His leading. When we see the first personal conversion in Scripture we see the Spirit told Phillip to go 50 miles south of where he was currently for no real reason. He was obedient to the Spirit went and found the Ethiopian reading Scripture. He really did nothing but be obedient to God. It is one of the few places we even see a individual conversion and how it took place.
I have heard Rob Bell many times, read just about everything he has written, and yes watched all the Nooma videos, and I do agree with Jimbo, Rob Bell does believe in a eternal separation from God in a literal hell. And he is very much challenging that we don’t even need to use that in sharing Christ. We live in such a world where we have to make a decision on consequences and whether or not they are bad enough for us to choose a certain way. That is how we present the Gospel now, turn because if you don’t you will burn. We see Jesus telling us about the consequences of hell, but we rarely see Him use it as a way of “converting” people. He didn’t tell the Samaritan she was gonna burn in hell, he loved her, cared for her, and revealed himself to her…..and she desired to follow Him.
“We see Jesus telling us about the consequences of hell, but we rarely see Him use it as a way of “converting” people. He didn’t tell the Samaritan she was gonna burn in hell, he loved her, cared for her, and revealed himself to her…..and she desired to follow Him.”
Jesus then said, “Go and leave your life of sin.”
HI! First timer..
My 2 cents….I agree most of us would not start a conversation with a non-believer with ” hey accept jesus or your going to hell”. But I do know that it is in the word of God. When I speak of the Lords word I know the effect it has promised it will have.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The holy Spirit guides us and knows what an individual needs. Wether it be love or conviction.
If it doesn’t really matter what we say when sharing Christ, then why bother? Buy them some groceries and pat yourself on the back; give the homeless drunk guy a buck and move on. If hell doesn’t need to be mentioned in a conversation or salvation message, then neither does God’s wrath toward sinners (Rom 1:18-32). So what reason then do we give to the lost that will convince them to “come to Jesus?” The message of the church for over a century has been “God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life,” and we’ve created false believers and a Christianity full of sinfulness. Years ago, I personally led many people through the sinner’s prayer by telling them this (see my blog above for more details–”I’ve Done My Friends a Disservice”). With this message people come with the wrong motives, ie., what can Jesus do for me?
The Gospel means “good news,” as someone already said. Ephesians says we who are converted were dead in our trespasses, followers of Satan, and that God raised us up w/ Christ (Eph 2:1-5). It’s not that we had some sin here or there and that at times it hurt others’ feelings; we sinned against the Most High God and are deserving of death. Our sin is vertical, not horizontal. An “addiction” isn’t just hurtful and unkind, it’s sin. Adultery isn’t just wrong, it’s damnable. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 21:8.
I have been using the Way of the Master (as a starting point) for a couple of years, and have found that not only does biblical evangelism make sense, but it works. Paul said that the Law of God brings the knowledge of sin, that apart from it he wouldn’t have known what sin was. When I witness to people I go through the 10 Commandments with them every time and get them to admit which ones they’ve broken. They admit their guilt and I don’t judge them. They see they’ve sinned against God and I tell them that God will judge them in righteousness and if they are in their sins on Judgment Day they will go to hell. I tell them with love in my voice that I don’t want that for them, that there is another way. If they are not still trying to justify their behavior and I can see that they are concerned about their eternal destiny, I encourage them to do two things found in scripture that are necessary for salvation (besides God regenerating their dead soul): Repent of your sins and believe in the gospel of Christ, then you’ll be saved. That’s the good news, in a nutshell.
See, without mentioning the bad news, the gospel makes partial or no sense. People think, “Why did Christ die for me? I’m a pretty good person…” Scripture says we’re wretched, and I plead with those of you here who don’t see your own sin as filthy in God’s sight (in fact our righteous deeds are as filthy rags), study the doctrine of sin in the Bible. Look at God’s wrath and judgment. How much does God hate sin? Look at the cross! He killed His own son because he hates sin so much and wants us to be reconciled to Himself. “He that believes not is condemned already…” (John 3)
Over and over Paul talks about us being justified, washed, cleansed, forgiven, etc. Why? Because we were enemies of God, not just erring kids who stayed out too late and wouldn’t eat our veggies, enemies! If hell is real, which we seem to all agree on here at this thread, we should be warning people of the wrath to come (Matt 3:7-12). Without repentance there is no salvation. I don’t condone “hellfire and brimstone preaching,” but speaking about hell is essential. God is holy, righteous; He is love, and because He’s love He must punish sin. If God doesn’t punish sin, then He is a corrupt judge. And if we don’t tell sinners about the whole counsel of God, they either come to Christ for life enhancement–which eventually will bring disappointment–or they remain impartial to the Truth and hold that “truth is relative, Jesus is good if he works for you.” That’s not truth at all.
Jesus didn’t shy from talking about sin with the Samaritan woman at the well; she was humble and ready for grace–she didn’t justify her adultery. And if she did follow Jesus long enough, she’d have heard him say, “go and sin no more.” Now look at Jesus with the rich young man. Christ brought up the Law and didn’t give the guy the gospel because he wasn’t willing to put down his sinful idol: money and possessions. The guy went away sad. 2 Tim 2:19–”Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” We must tell people that they need to flee from sin, and the reason why.
I highly recommend 3 sermons by Ray Comfort: Hell’s Best Kept Secret, True and False Conversion, and Consequences of Failure to Use the Law
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml
All that said, once I tell someone about the good, the bad and the ugly, I will continue to put out my hand to them in love. James says that true religion is taking care of orphans and widows; faith without works is dead. I in particular try to reach out to drug addicts and alcoholics, because I’ve been there. If they don’t believe right away or say they aren’t concerned about going to hell, I’ll try to reason with them further. Later, in continued contact, I try to help them to overcome their addiction. But it’s the gospel of Christ that sets us free from sin, and this is the foundation of breaking from from any sin. So I’ll continue to share the Scriptures with them and help them however I can. The same with anyone else.
Sorry about the length of this. No, I’m not. It’s just that I feel so passionate that if hell is where the unbelievers end up when they die, then we as Christians must not feel afraid to tell them the truth. If you saw a blind man running barefoot toward a busy intersection with music blasting from his headphones, you wouldn’t try to give him some Nike Air’s and a bottle of water in hopes that he would stay away long enough from the cars, afraid that he might get offended if you told him about the danger. No! You’d warn him about the traffic–you’d take off his headphones and make him listen to the sound of the cars honking and braking, etc. Let us help sinners in their hurts and disappointments, their trials and difficulties, all the while telling them the entire truth. If they refuse to listen, that’s between them and God. Then we have shown them the true love of God in Christ, who died not so we could be comfortable in life, rather to save us from our sins and hell. That, my friends, is the True Gospel.
Wow, everyone here should consider spending half of the negitive energy you are focusing on rob and the other posters here to go join god in his redemption of the world… and dont give me the “we have to correct others because we are right because of these 6 random verses” argument- someone else will give you 7 other random verses that make it seem like they are right. we have spent the better part of two thousand years arguing this [edited by the owner of the blog, for another failure in emergent orthopraxy], why dont we be really radical and go love someone the way jesus told us to.
Rob seems to be searching and searching for reasonable and logic explanations for some topics.
He strikes me as a seeker full of questions but at the same time he is trying to make sense of things he cannot understand with his own understanding.
There is nothing wrong with wanting, yearning and trying to find logic related with Gods word or world issues, however we must talk and seek and yearn for Gods explanation of all things by praying and finding a real encounter with the author- God.
I find a commited prayer life can also bring insight and enlightening to Gods word. So keep on seeking, but it may be wiser to not lean on our own understanding.
Brandon,
Which 6 random verses are you referring to? Also, what would you suggest one do in “joining God in his redemption of the world,” and loving people “the way Jesus told us to?” What does that look like for you I guess is what I’m asking, Rob Bell and other topics aside?
Emergent/ing is not all about ambiguity. Or lack of truth. But that is what is said isn’t it?
Rob Bell’s theology comes from a lot of authors. NT Wright, and others that have emerged since the Sander’s Revolution and follow something called the New Perspective (Wright calls his the Fresh Perspective). Whether you (who ever ends up looking this up) find out, I hope that you will give the intros to one of these authors books a read because most of them begin with a history of interpretation of scripture since Martin Luther… and regardless of your/my conclusions… it is sobering.
Hi all, and especially Jimbo. I did not know a thing about the Emergent Church, Mars Hill , or Rob Bell till recently, when I read Velvet Elvis and watched ‘Bullhorn Guy’ at the suggestion of a friend. I spent many days circling sections, making notes, checking against scriptures etc etc. As I read it I thought there were a few jarring notes but I initially found much of what Rob said to be plausible, if not downright spot on..
however, when I added up the jarring notes I found I was shocked. There was so much in opposition to the bible! I had to conclude that this man must be opposed, he is teaching some serious leaven disguised amongst some very tasty bread. I was unaffected by everyone elses hype about the issues, as I had not heard any of them at the time…these were conclusions I came to by comparing Robs book IN DETAIL to the bible.
But really, what else should we expect in these last days? if someone were to say “this sunday we welcome as our guest preacher the local warlock from our neighbourhood satanist cult”, we would recognise it for what it was and either oppose it or walk out. However our enemy the devil is far more subtle, wooing our hearts and minds by degrees…a ‘little here, a little there’. We are warned that in the last days this very thing would occur. Never mind that Rob and others like him visit slums in Rwwanda, give people food or toasters…on the last day MANY will say to Jesus “didn’t we, in your name…..”, only to have him say depart from me you evil doers. Good works are NO excuse for teaching falsehoods and “distorting the word of God”.
I would seriously, seriously counsel you Jimbo, to not just listen to sermons on an ipod while jogging. Do that if you want…ive done the same while driving to work. I would plead with you to also take the time, yes take the actual time, to go beyond sound bites and compare what is said to the whole counsel of scripture. Ive concluded that Rob is the master of the plausible sound bite, backed up by the plucked verse of scripture, and he has this characteristic i both his book and his videos. Remember, “There is a way that seems right to a man that in the end leads him to death”.
Part of the problem is that these days there seems to be a famine of the word of God, something else predicted by prophecy. People are living today (in their too-busy modern lives) on sound bites of scripture, or even just on sound bites of people who claim to know scripture.
If you want me to email you my detailed analysis of Robs Book, tell me and I will put my email address on a post (is that allowed?) or just copy and paste the whole thing here (also allowed? Its lengthy!)
and incidentally, why do you want to help ‘make the gospel cool?’. The bible says that the gospel will forever be the stench of death to those who are perishing. Now, we ARE called to make the gospel as attractive as possible so as to “save some”, but what the world calls cool will often be what is squeezed into its mold…so lets not try to set out and achieve something that God says will not occur…like saving the world, which God says WILL pass away and be replaced by a new earth that comes out of heaven (something, incidentally, Robs book contradicts, as he teaches, in writing , that we will make THIS earth so good that God will come here, and heaven will be here).
Why all this “picking on Rob”, one may ask…well, those who put themselves forward as pastor/teachers have to be careful, lest they ’cause one of these little ones to sin”, and deserve being flung into the sea with a heavy weight to prevent further leading of others astray. Paul commanded his lieutenants to “watch their life and doctrine closely”. Doctrine, doctrine doctrine…you cannot get away from it, and frankly, who would want to?! Doctrine just means truth…why play around the edges so as to come across as cool? we don’t have to intentionally insult, or be insensitive to those who we live amongst and preach to, whether we do it quietly or on the street. But neither do we have to, nor should we, be masters of the half truth in order to try and ‘please all men’. Jesus said woe to you IF all men think well of you!
We are called to “judge ALL matters in the Church”, and to test and approve…why is Rob - and his defenders - so defensive against that? Its because it suits his agenda to not be criticised. I tried contacting Rob to give my detailed critique, but the Mars Hill folks tasked with filtering contacts naturally said he gets too many requests to answer them personally. A convenient way of staying surrounded by acolytes and avoiding those who may have a contrary message.
I would not bother with all this if the TRUTH were not so important!
Cheers
Steve
Gene,
Very well said, I love your passion for the Gospel!!! Bottom line with Rob Bell is this:
Make Christianity a beacon of Hope, Joy, and Love. Don’t make it about a bunch of rules that unless you believe these rules, you can’t join. Rob opens up his first book(Velvet Elvis) with a great analogy that really struck home for me. Do we want Christianity to be like a Brick Wall with all its bricks, or like a trampoline with all of its springs.
Do we want Non-Believers thinking that they must believe every brick in the wall before they can be a “Christian”, OR, do we want to invite them onto to trampoline to jump with us(even though one or two of the springs may be missing). They will get the truths(springs) later, but lets invite them NOW. Let them experience the Joy and Happiness that Christ can Bring.
There is nothing wrong with leading with Hell and Eternal judgement, it sometimes works. It is the reason Christ had to die. There is no denying that. I would rather invite someone to jump on the trampoline with me, and through our friendship, tell them about Hell and eternal damnation.
Grace and Peace.
[...] (HT: seeing clearly/Dave Marriott) [...]
Steve,
I agree with your statements, especially: “I would not bother with all this if the TRUTH were not so important!” Paul said that in the latter days people would want to have their ears tickled, and that is just what is happening…I’m sure it’s nothing new. We must guard our doctrine closely and accurately divide the word of truth.
Jimbo,
you’re right. Christianity is a beacon of hope, joy and love. And since it’s the Truth, as Steve said, it’s actually the only real beacon. That’s what drives my passion to reach the lost, and I hope that when you (or any of us) “jump on the trampoline” with friends that we don’t wait until the 50th jump to tell them the gospel. If we wait too long, we may be too late.
There’s a video, not sure if it’s on the web, but it’s a testimony of Ken Rundus. He’s a brother in the Lord and worked with an atheist who had cancer. Ken thought about visiting him in the hospital on a Friday, but figured he’d share the gospel with him on Monday I think. By the time Ken returned to work on Monday, the atheist had checked himself out of the hospital and took his own life. The man is likely in hell right now. It’s been said that as we preach the gospel we should keep one eye on hell (the sinner’s destiny) and one eye on the cross (where the conversation should head).
As we faithfully proclaim the full counsel of God, we can certainly take comfort that He is the One who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, and He is the One who regenerates, saves and sanctifies sinners.
One word of caution though. You said, “They will get the truths(springs) later, but lets invite them NOW. Let them experience the Joy and Happiness that Christ can Bring.” A lost sinner cannot experience the joy of the Savior. A natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). If the truths you are talking about are deeper things such as “the end times” or “glorification” or “Christ’s return,” then those things can wait. But fundamental truths such as future punishment and sin must be brought up with our unsaved friends before/with the gospel in order for it to make sense. Paul warned the Galatians (in chapter 1:6-10) not to believe those who distort the gospel. The gospel is Christ dying for our sins(1 Corinthians 15:1-4), so if we leave out the sin and hell part, we present half a gospel which is not the gospel. It can all be presented with great tenderness and compassion to the willing listener, especially if we go in with a healthy hatred of our own sin against God.
Hope I didn’t seem to be minimizing the Lord’s return in my last statement. I meant just that certain aspects of it (time frame, manner, etc) may be non-essential in sharing the gospel, though the fact that Christ will return is important because that is when the Lord will judge the earth.
“Seriously, Everyone is missing the point. I am actually laughing of how many comments were made on Bell’s comments totally taking what he said out of context.
Does Bell believe in a literal hell - yes!!”
But that’s the problem - you’re saying he said ‘yes’ when he never did. If he believes in it, why can’t he just say it? Does he feel like he’s going to alienate his church by doing so? When someone levels a point-blank question at him - ‘Do you believe in a literal hell?’ - he goes on for 2 or 3 paragraphs without saying yes or no.
Furthermore, it seems like he doesn’t want to talk about it because he fears it will alienate seekers and won’t win anyone to Christ. Sorry, Rob, but there’s plenty in the Bible to alienate new seekers (homosexuality is wrong, hell exists, nobody comes to the Father except through Christ, etc). But we can’t just kick out the verses we don’t like and claim ‘multiple interpretations’ or ‘ambiguity in the translation’ every time this happens. I sometimes fear that this is the reason the emerging church is growing so quickly; all the ‘uncomfortable’ verses are getting whittled away.
Dave said:
“Furthermore, it seems like he doesn’t want to talk about it because he fears it will alienate seekers and won’t win anyone to Christ. Sorry, Rob, but there’s plenty in the Bible to alienate new seekers (homosexuality is wrong, hell exists, nobody comes to the Father except through Christ, etc). But we can’t just kick out the verses we don’t like and claim ‘multiple interpretations’ or ‘ambiguity in the translation’ every time this happens. I sometimes fear that this is the reason the emerging church is growing so quickly; all the ‘uncomfortable’ verses are getting whittled away.”
May I just accuse and admit that EVERY “label” (liberal, conservitive, fundamentalist, post-liberal, Calvinist, Armenian, etc…
is guilty of EXACTLY what you just said. Picking and choosing verses to validate your (universal your, not picking on Dave here) own personal beliefs. I’m not going to say that the Emergent Church isn’t guilty of it (although many who are affiliated with it are at least cognitive of it and admit that it happens and TRY to avoid it), overall, it is. But so is EVERYONE. I think that one thing that the emergent movement has to it’s advantage is that it isn’t approaching the Bible from the standpoint of (for example), “I know homosexuality is wrong, I’ve always been taught that, but where in the Bible does it say that?”
Instead many are saying, “wait, let me throw out what I’ve always been taught and read EVERYTHING i can find in the Bible about the topic of homosexuality! Let me put aside what I THINK, and approach it as if I were reading it for the first time. Also, let’s not just look up homosexuality in a concordance, but let’s take the overall message of the Bible and Christ. Let’s look at how he treated others and try to come up with a more exhaustive and comprehensive understanding of what our response and belief SHOULD be about said subject.”
We all pick and choose our scriptures. We also pick and choose in what fashion we want to use those scriptures. Thus, there are few people who truly try to look at ALL of the passages on a subject or topic, and those people get attacked for it; Wright, Borg, Ehrman, etc…
I’ll give 2 better examples of how we pick and choose verses. How did Judas die? 2 different stories there??? Also, where was Joseph originally from? Luke says that he and Mary are from Galilee, and that is the Christmas story we always teach. However, Matt. has an interesting statement we often overlook or simply ignore, Matt. 2:19-23. It seems in this that after Egypt, Joseph intended to go back to Bethlehem but was told instead (for safety reasons) to instead go and make his home in a new town called Nazareth in Galilee. Most interesting statement: they are told to do this so (in order) that Jesus can fulfill a prophesy and be “called a Nazorean.”
And there are many more examples of passages, laws, even whole books that different groups ignore based on their own preconceived theologies. NO ONE takes a holistic approach to the Bible, but I think that there are many out there who are TRYING to do exactly that. I for one am TRYING, but it is hard when you’ve been brought up in an environment that has taught you to do the opposite.
Sorry, I wanted to set that record straight. We all do it, and that was simply a “pot calling a kettle Black”. No disrespect, like I said, I am trying, but I still pick and choose too.
“We all pick and choose our scriptures.”
Sounds like moral relativity and the concept that no one can really know what’s true. And if your trying to argue that no one can know what’s true, we don’t have a lot to hope for here. If truth is relative to the individual because we, as you say, all pick and choose scriptures, then we can’t even argue. Truth becomes an abstract thing defined by each person on their own.
I don’t believe that. Truth is absolute, concrete, and very real. The Bible in context gives us that truth.
My husband and I have been spending quite a bit of time lately learning about Islam because the Islamic population in our area is growing. What I find REALLY interesting is the VAST difference between a Muslim convert here in the US vs. a Muslim who’s moved to the US.
My husband has a friend (from Morocco) who invited him and our kids over for dinner with a promise of authentic Moroccan food. Excited at the thought, my husband walked away and then realized that I (his wife) hadn’t been invited. He then asked his buddy if I could come. His buddy’s response? ‘My wife is out of town now, so when she comes home then that would be alright. When she is home then you and I can sit in one room and the women in another. This is our custom.’ So basically, I wouldn’t be able to talk to the guy anyway.
And yet the US Islamic converts somehow skip over passages in the Koran about how women are 4 times stupider than men and are and that they’re only half human. They also skip over the violence that it teaches (don’t take my word for it. read it).
Why skip those portions? Why not be true to the religion that they claim to be a part of? My opinion is that it’s because they will win no westerner over (not many, anyhow) by being honest with what the Koran truly teaches.
Is this what we’ve come to as Christians in the US? Afraid that we won’t win anyone to Christ because… the Bible talks about hell but because hell sounds so unfavorable, then we’ll just push it aside and talk about the aspects of Christianity that people would probably like better???
My vote is that we just let the Bible say what it’s trying to stay and stop trying to intellectualize the parts we don’t like away. It seems to me that if you don’t actually know what you’re getting into nor what you beleive, you aren’t a true convert anyway. At that point, you’ve just invented a cropped version of the original religion.
Joshua,
I think you should go back and read my WHOLE comment again. I think you’ve jumped to tag what I’m saying into some preconceived label that you have. No where in there do I even hint at the idea of Moral Relativity. If it helps, throw out the EXAMPLE of homosexuality…that’s all it was. Focus on the other examples I give. If anything it is more of an issue of scriptural integrity…not in the terms of questioning the integrity of scripture, but the integrity of how we use and interpret scripture. What I was saying is that none of us do it holistically.
It is present throughout all denominations, and throughout history. Yes there ARE moral issues. Slavery was justified by picking and choosing verses. But I’m speaking doctrinally. As mentioned above…EXAMPLES are Elect verses free will (both concepts are in the Bible, but depending which side you are on to begin with determines which passages you raise up and which you ignore. Same goes with the different theories of Atonement, or how about the doctrines of the Eucharist? Scripture has been picked over and uncontextualized to run the gambit of differing views on gender roles/rights. As Raquel points out in the Koran about passages they skip over…lets take a look at the Laws we pick and choose to obey from the OT. We’re quick to follow the rules that make sense to us, and ignore the ones that we can explain away as outdated or any other way to logically dismiss them. Again, It’s not a moral issue it’s an interpretive reading issue.
Best example, please look at the 2 birth narratives. How much have we gotten away from what is scripturally accurate there? The wise men in our nativity sets? That’s neither historically or BIBLICALLY accurate (they visited Jesus in a house after the birth). Or where Mary and Joesph were from… two conflicting accounts there. Same with Judas’ death. But we pick and choose what we will teach and represent scripturally.
So please, I think you need to reread, because I’m not talking about Truth or morality, simply what is present in the Bible. I’m making the case that EXACTLY what Dave says about one group truthfully goes towards everyone, whether they realize it or not…or usually they simply deny that it’s true. I’m not denying it’s true, and am admitting that I am guilty of it too!
hope that helps to clarify that. thanks
Jesus had much more to say about a literal Hell than he did about heaven.
Jesus had much more to say about a literal Hell than he did about heaven.
That’s only if you’re very generous with the word “literal”. Jesus talks about Gehena, which was a literal garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, and he talks about Sheol, or the grave. The fact is that Jewish thoughts on the afterlife were different than Greek/western thoughts.
To the Jewish audience, either one was included in the resurrection or not. There was some idea about a judgement after death for the unrighteous, but it was not completely developed. N.T. Wright explains this quite well in multiple places.
The thing is when Jesus warns the Pharisees of judgement by telling them they are at risk of being thrown into Gehena, He is trying to get them to change now. A real, literal, hell on earth is about to come, and they need to change or else they will be thrown to the trash heap of history. They will miss out on God’s plan. They will not be part of the resurrection. So yes, Jesus is warning them of consequences, but how it relates to heaven and hell as we in the west view it is not cut and dry.
I mentioned N.T. Wright before, and I think his new book Surprised by Hope is very, very helpful. If you want to see what Bell believes, I would say look there. Bell has pretty much said in so many words that he has stolen a lot from Wright.