This is not the place for me to argue it at length, but suffice it to say that hardly any pastors/theologians anymore believe that Jesus was in hell for three days. I suggest Karen Jobes’ commentary on 1 Peter to help sort out 1 Peter 3 to start. Furthermore, most creedal denominations now say “he descended to the dead” when reciting the Apostle’s Creed (which is a valid translation), unless of course they are using more traditional liturgy, at which time they retain “descended to hell” for the sake of tradition. So, following your logic, the majority of Christendom at the present does not believe that Jesus died to save them from hell and so forth down your list. Watch the slippery slope as it is often quite slippery even for the one using it.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Or when he talks in places about helping people now being the focus we need;

Matt 6
19″Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Here are 2 wonderful instances of the bible adressing the likes of Bell

We’ve been watching the Nooma series in our Sunday School class and I’m the teacher. The videos have grown progressively wierder and wierder. Now I fear I’ve subjected my class to a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Robs bread is his teaching. He claims clearly in The Emergent Mystique, a lengthy interview with Christianity Today (look at the Website link that I gave as my own). Here is what Rob Bell said: “discovering the Bible as a human product,” as Rob puts it, rather than the product of divine fiat.

Also Quotes from his book Velvet Elvis: Heaven and Hell

“Heaven is full of forgiven people. Hell is full of forgiven people. Heaven is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for. Hell is full of forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for. The difference is how we choose to live, which story we choose to live in, which version of reality we trust. Ours or God’s.” – p. 146
“When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter–they are all hell on earth. Jesus’ desire for his followers is that they live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth. What’s disturbing is when people talk more about hell after this life than they do about Hell here and now. As a Christian, I want to do what I can to resist hell coming to earth.” – p. 148
“The goal of Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here.” – p. 148

Also he recommends to young minds listening to NOOMA to take three months off and read Ken Wilber’s “A Brief History of Everything” Bell goes on to say about Wilbers book: “Mind blowing introduction to emergence theory and divine creativity.” Wilber is respected and highly regarded theoreticians in the New Age movement. He is promoting such things as Yoga, Zen, Centering Prayer, Kabala (A.K.A. Kabbala) , TM, Tantra, and Kundalini Yoga.

Bell clearly dose NOT believe in the Holy God of the Bible. His message and speech are that of a New Age humanist.

Study God’s Word, study the history of the Bibles (yes there are 2 Bibles, on is the True Word of God the other is a counterfeit created by Satan not long after the first century), then quickly study Theosophy (You don’t want you mind corrupted so make sure you have read plenty of Scripture before hand). I pray you will see the Truth of Jesus Christ and the strategies of the Devil.

What was the drawing card for Christianity during New Testament times? What is the drawing card being used now? Was church back then suppose to be fun and interesting in order to call in new Christians?

Please for the glory of God, preach the truth, preach it boldy and DO NOT be ashamed of any part of the gospel! If God chooses, the Holy Spirit will work in that person and it will make sense and they will not be able to flee.

A brother in Christ,

James

I heard on the news a while back that some man and his father took turns brutally sexually assaulting a little five year old boy while the mother of the man watched; then they strangled the little boy and threw his body in a garbage bag.

I want that man and his parents to go to hell. I pray that my God is a god of justice and that He will punish evil. To love good, you must hate evil.

But before “I” can condemn, I must remember what Paul said. That I am under that same law, and that I am also guilty of great evil. That’s when I realize how great the news of the Gospel message is.

I think you make some very good points. It’s not an ‘either-or’ in regards to beliefs and practice, it’s both of them. For me, I would probably say that right beliefs do usually precede right practices, because the beliefs are what help us determine the practices, but both are important.

I do get a bit weary, though, of the tires argument that churches which stress doctrine tend to not act on it. Maybe my experiences are different then yours, but the churches I’ve known that are good in doctrine are also ones that are active in other and various ways–helping each other and those around them when needed, doing things in the communities, supporting missionaries and sending short-term teams, running and supporting such things as pro-life pregnancy centers, running summer camps, and probably other things I’m not thinking of at the moment.

The thing is, most churches I know of do their works rather quietly, without much fanfare and without trumpeting them in books.

However, if this is what he thinks being a Christian is ALL about, he’s just as bad as the typical “church” he condemns. While a lot of churches and Christians get too caught up in “doctrine” or who’s saved or not saved, and often just forget to love people and actually “work out their salvation”, it is just as dangerous, and probably more so, to only be “good” people, with no doctrine or TRUTH.

To me, if you follow down Rob’s path WITHOUT also having a very solid theological and doctrinal foundation, you would very likely end up being no different than Oprah and Dr. Phil and other people who genuinely care for society and helping people. The only difference would be that it’s done under the banner of Jesus. Don’t get me wrong, being under the banner of Jesus is all the reason there is to do good and help others.

BUT, we can’t forget that among doing good and loving others and accepting others, there is TRUTH to consider. In the end, there is “saved” and “unsaved”, there is Heaven and there is Hell. We can love people and help them all day, but if we love them all day in the name of Jesus but never tell them who Jesus is, then what’s the point?

Isn’t Jesus our Saviour? What did He come to save us from? Polluted water? Starvation? No, the only reason the “Word became flesh” was to reconcile us to Him. He came to live, but ultimately to die, and live again.

If we know an agnostic, or a Mormon, and we love them, and we fellowship with them, and we accept them, and we don’t judge them, but then can’t discuss TRUTH and doctrine, and salvation (which naturally implies being “saved” from something), then what has all of our “goodness” done for their souls? In the end, isn’t Jesus more concerned with their soul than with providing clean water to them? I’m not implying that it’s what Rob thinks, but you can’t just do all the good works to put yourself in position to share Christ, and then not be prepared to defend the faith.

Remember where I started the post. BOTH things are important. We should be the hands and feet of Christ, helping those in need. It gives us a platform and credibility to then be able to share with them. BUT, once the time is at hand, and the conversation goes that way, and we share, it is of the utmost importance to be able to share solid, Biblical TRUTH with them.

53 minutes into our conversation with them about “God”, if they ask about Hell, it is no time to skate around it for fear of “offending” them, or for fear of ruffling feathers, or for fear of “judging” them. It is our obligation to speak the TRUTH that the Lord has provided us in His word. When it comes to that, it is not our idea, not what’s “true for me”. It is THE TRUTH, that His Word gives. Not our opinion, His. We are not the judge, He is, but He is a Just God, also full of grace.

Hell is absolutely essential to explaining God’s Grace and justification. Sure, it doesn’t have to be your leading headline, but you can’t just say “oh that’s the problem with the church, always wanting to argue for the existence of Hell”. You can not watch the news, but that doesn’t change the fact that someone was murdered that day. And just because someone says, “three people were shot in a drive-by shooting yesterday”, the doesn’t mean that I am glad there was a shooting, or that it’s “the side I’m on”.

In fact, I don’t think I would ever argue so strongly for the fact that Hell exsists, unless it was with the pastor of a church acting like it may or may not be true and that it’s just not really important anyway. That’s where you’ll find me arguing about it. If a Muslim wanted to argue with me about what Hell or Heaven is really like, I would probably be a little vague and focus on more important things in Bible and who Jesus was or wasn’t, that would be a more appropriate or “core” issue to have a dialog about. But the pastor of a Christian church? Sure, that warrants a lively debate about the existence of Hell.

The mainstream church has to get away from a bubble-Christianity, be willing to get dirty and be the hands and feet. But in this post-modern era of relativism, we cannot abandon TRUTH and scripture and doctrine. We have to be both to the world. We have to give them literal water, but we have to share with the idea of drinking from Him, as he told the woman at the well. And in that discussion comes the WHOLE scripture, the WHOLE truth, Hell and everything.

It’s interesting to me that Rob mentions Christians living in “fear”. It seems so clear to me that he is willing to be the hands and feet of Christ and do good. But isn’t that the “safe” part of being a Christian. If you just come in and help people, what do you have to fear? What’s harder to do, and what would naturally bring more fear, would be to do those things AND be bold in Biblical truth. Call a spade a spade, Hell is what it is. The fearful thing to do is to avoid the topic, be vague and give an answer that would be comfortable on Larry King.

We need leaders that break from the mold of the “bubble church” But we don’t need them to leave doctrine behind at the expense of Biblical truth.

I am not rebelling against “truth” (although to be fair I think I have a very different opinion on what I label “truth” as compared to what others here would label “truth”)… but if SOMETHING (doubt? fear? lack of control?) motivates someone to present this “truth” in underhanded methods such as indoctrination /guilt/fear, then it tells me that there is possibly a different/better “truth” out there that they are fearful of me knowing. Thus, I think free/critical thinking, full disclosure, and fair tactics of presentation of “truth” (perhaps similar to what we see Bell doing in his ominous statements) is a “better way to live”:)

Why? This better way of living means in place of defensive and attack attitudes it forces me to practice patience and trust in God’s sovereignty and the power of the Holy Spirit. To be clear, I am not so much rebelling against “truth” as much I am rebelling against the approach that has been used to transmit/communicate/control those “truths”. Hence why I challenge those who feel the need to “defend the faith” (like God really is so small that we can truly “defend” him?), or attack others openly and publicly who have differeing opinions.

Allow me to quote a great theologian:
“Belief is a beautiful armor, that makes for the heaviest sword,
Like punching underwater, you never can hit who you’re trying for.
Some need the exhibition, some need to know their trying,
but it’s the chemical weapon for the war that wages on inside.” –John Mayer

I think sometimes we all (me included) have to sit back and ask ourselves, what is really motivating me to take ______ approach towards my beliefs and actions out of those beliefs? I think many times it is selfishly derived out of our own doubts and fears. Just my humble opinion though.

As for the creation story, I am in complete agreement with you that it is CLEAR that man is the obvious apex of the creation narrative. That completely backs up my comments about how our whole religion/philosophy/and way of life is hinged on this assumption. For more insight on the possibility of a different view read Daniel Quinn’s “Ishmael” actually any of Quinn’s books, but Ishmael is the best start)…a very very challenging book, not Christian at all, but asks the question, “what if”! Not saying I agree with it, just a challenging philosophical view that gave me a lot to think on, and possibly new insight into myself and humanity in general.

I bring that up because one key thing that the book, and the philosophy behind the book, focuses on is how much humanity (not just religions, but humanity in general) HAS raised itself up to be “the highest value”. I agree completely that God’s value is immeasurable, and we are but “dust in the wind”. I agree completely with your last paragraph. I think it is a reality check in which many Christians need. But I wonder what implications come from that taken to the logical conclusions? We were created to live in harmony which glorifies him. We were created that all acts we do would be worship…worship itself is not a set of “acts”, rather a way of being. But when we participate in certain “acts”, we are not BEING worshipful. I think most call this sin. So we have to approach each act with the question, “is my action in tune with the mindset of “being worshipful”? I would argue that some of the approaches Christians take in the name of God would have to answer that question, “no”.

good thoughts, and a good discussion. Thanks Nicole. I appriciate this dialog. Your first comment is a challenging one. If you’ve never felt that (and I don’t know if you have or not)violation that comes from the REALIZATION that you are being manipulated through indoctrination/fear/guilt tactics, then it is truly hard to explain and grasp. Some people are ok with this because they never truly realize that there are other ways to present “truth”. It is not that rebellion has prompted me to “live differently”, it’s more that I found that there is a better way to live out my Christian life, and to share the “good news” without using such tactics. One way is by challenging what it was that was “shoved down my throat”, and realizing that there are other options. Sometimes I have come back to my inherited beliefs, while at other times I have steered away towards newer concepts and ways of understanding God/Christ/the Gospel/faith/etc… I know it seems a fine line, but the key is finding the freedom from the fear/guilt/loyalty that came from indoctrination, and critically thinking about one’s faith and beliefs. It transitions one from an “inherited faith” into an “owned faith”, EVEN if the beliefs themselves don’t change! I submit that the latter is a far better life of faith. See Fowler’s “Stages of Faith” for more on this.

thanks again… good thoughts and comments Nicole.
j

I think living with an eternal focus should significantly impact our life on earth – and that the reason Christians have so little impact is because the don’t. Only what is done for Christ will have any eternal significance.

As to man in creation – I think Genesis 1:26 makes it fairly clear that God did create man as the pivitol point of His creation. We are the only thing created in His image, and the only thing He said was “very good.” He also told Adam he would dominion over every other creature.

I think where our theology falls apart is in thinking that because we are central in creation that we are somehow the thing to which God sees as having the most value – which is false. God is of infinite value, not us. He is most worthy of praise, not us. And we were created to glorify Him, not the other way around….

I think there needs to be a healthy balance of the two. I know this is a product of what churches have shoved down my throat, but I usually focus MORE on the here and now than on eternity. It’s not that it isn’t important to me, it’s just that it has, again, been shoved down my throat all of my life.

But once I realized that focusing (to me) on ONLY the eternal emphasis (both the passages that DO speak about immortality and the passages that we INTERPRET to speak about immortality) was missing a big (the biggest?) chunk of the Bible I feel as if perhaps I have many years of skewed focus for which I need to make up. so I admit, I prob. need some balance too.

I think it interesting (not putting this down, just find it interesting from a psychological and anthropological POV) that the biggest assumption of Christianity is that mankind is the pivotal point of creation, and that we take priority ABOVE all other things on earth. Again, I’m not criticizing that philosophy, simply pointing out that this idea of thinking is the foundation of our whole religion! Everything we believe, think, and argue about (not just within our religion, but amongst all religions) is balancing on this assumption.

very interesting, and has continually led us (Christian History) to some interesting conclusions based on that.

After that side note, adding to what Phil has already mentioned, there are commentators and theologians who have pointed out that the punishment presented in the “fall story” is not so much that man will “dominate the land”, but part of the “laboring process” would be the push and pull of our impact on nature as well as it’s impact on us. It would not be that food would simply grow for us, but we would continually have to “labor” to keep the land balanced, fresh and healthy in order for it to provide for us and our descendants. Farmers have continually understood this for centuries. In the story, before the “fall”, Adam and Eve had 99% free reign and no responsibility for the land, their relationship to the land was parasitic in nature. However, after them being ejected from the garden, the reality changed for them and their relationship with the land would then become forevermore Symbiotic, forming a NEW relationship with the land.

Not stating this as my view, but it is an interesting take on the Garden/Adam/Eve story. Sorry, I can’t think of who I should be crediting with this view, the books that talk about this are packed up and stored. Sorry, I hate not being able to give credit to those who are responsible for the ideas:/